The Mark Hollis 1998 Rune-Schjøtt-Wieth Interview
Transcript of the 1998 interview conducted by Rune-Schjøtt-Wieth
This is a transcript of Rune-Schjøtt-Wieth’s interview with Mark Hollis in 1998.
He writes (on Jan 25th, 2023),
“Found this old vhs tape of an interview I did with Mark Hollis for Danish television. Around the time of the release of his solo album. It's the raw footage, not the edited version that ended up on tv. Sorry about the timecode in picture, and the pour sound quality - and please disregard my questions, they were never meant for broadcast. It cuts off very abruptly, and there is another 20 minutes or so, on another tape somewhere. I'll keep looking for that.
Some of this interview is quoted in the wonderful book by Ben Wardle - Mark Hollis a Perfect Silence. If anyone knows how to reach Mr. Wardle, please let him know this exists, maybe he could use more for any future editions of the book - and maybe he'll credit me this time (the credit in the first edition is wrong - since they had no way of knowing, that it really was me interviewing Mark).
R.I.P. Mark Hollis. You were a special talent! Update: I found the tape with the extra 20 minutes, but unfortunately the quality is even worse than this one, and cannot be used here.”
The video link is here.
The Interview:
…
Rune-Schjøtt-Wieth:
…Is the album gonna be called Mountains of the Moon? Or is it?…
Mark Hollis:
It doesn't… No, no, it has no title.
RSW:
So how come there was a title on that?…
MH:
That was just like a kind of studio working title, a provisional thing. So that was,
RSW:
Somewhere, I think in, in, um, December. So maybe November in Q Magazine there was this…
MH:
Yeah, I I, I wouldn't believe everything. I think it’s some mistake.
RSW:
Cool. Yeah. Okay.
MH:
Yeah.
RSW:
So, um, when, when you first started out with Talk Talk, it wasn't actually meant as a, as a group thing. You started out just doing a demo session with the two others.
MH:
Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's, that's true. Absolutely. And just got on well with them. I had a good rapport with them. Yeah, absolutely.
RSW:
And, um, but so now you're solo, so it's, it's, it's…
MH:
Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm solo in a way. I, I just kind of think, you know, cross those albums like Spirit of Eden and Laughing Stock, the, the kind of thing that Talk Talk was, was, was, it wasn't kind of like a band in a conventional sense. It was very much more like a kind of collective of musicians that, that worked together.
So rather than it being kind of like, you know, me and me and Tim [Friese-Greene] writing and then like, like, you know, Lee [Harris], there, there were also, you know, people like Mark Feltham and Martin Ditcham that we, you know, Henry Lowther, the stuff like that, that we kind of work with over a period and, and, uh, sort of new, and it's kind of like a coming, a coming together at the point when you make the albums, but then in that period, in between so much time that everyone kind of is, is free to move where they like.
So, although sort of, uh, you know, uh, the, the point of which me finishing writing with Tim, I mean, at that point I kind of think, you know, and Lee off doing his own stuff, I, I sort of think, well, you can't call an album now a Talk Talk album, which doesn't have those elements in. So, you know, that's, that's why it goes under my own name. Not through like wanting it to, but through not wanting it to go out under a name that isn't true.
The thing of it being like a kind of solo album is, you know, it's still like written with three other people and it's still performed like with about 16 other people. So it's more like, I'm kind of like a common link to it. Do you, do you, do you know what I mean?
Yeah. Because I, it's like, you know, I I always believe much as you write things, all, all musicians that record on an album, whether a part's written for them or not, it's, it's the musician themselves that, that, that are, you know, it's their personality and a part of them that you want in the performance.
RSW:
So the process wasn't that much different, or was it?
MH:
Yeah, the, the reason the, the way in which the, the, the, the process was different was just because with, um, Spirit of Eden and Laughing Stock, the, the kind of approach with that was that Tim and I would write in a very skeletal form, let people freeform, take fragments of their freeform playing, and then, you know, assemble an arrangement from that. Where with this [the Mark Hollis album], it's just everything is written up front. And that then what, what you do with people is, …is you ask them to ask, ask 'em to stick to the notation, but give them looseness in interpretation.
RSW:
So in the Laughing Stock and Spirit of Eden [process] was, was it then played and then you edit it? …Or did you rearrange?
MH:
Yeah, you just kind of like, you know, give, give someone like, say, you know, the amount of times instead—so like you give someone 10 hours of playing, it's kind of like, you know, you, you then listen back to that and just take small sections of things that they've played and either use them where they exist or else you move them to other places on the album and create an arrangement from that.
It was just an idea… It, it was just like taking the idea that when, when you improvise and you play something for the first time, you kind of play it at its peak. And if, if you kind of like play something and then you think, “oh, I I like that,” and then you replay it, you never quite get it. It's like the thing of demoing, you know, if you demo a track, no matter how badly you try to demo it, there will always be a quality within it that you subsequently would try to recreate, which you shouldn't do. So it, it was really like that, that as a basic approach.
But by, by, by the time we'd done Laughing Stock, it's kind of like, “okay, well look, we've explored that approach.” You know, I'd worked writing with Tim for like, maybe 10 years at that point, and it's kind of like, you know, it's important from album to album that you develop. And we just kind of felt, you know, we've reached what is very much like a natural endpoint. Let's not, let's not force it. Let's not lose experimentation and become formula. So that's that..
RSW:
But is it also easier for you to write now?
MH:
No, no. The writing thing just gets all the time. I mean, the thing of recording is, is easy because all, all you're looking to do with recording is to get musicians that you have, like, you know, uh, and, and affinity with and just get them to be really relaxed and kind of understand mentally the approach that, that you want the music to have. So that's, that's like, that side of things is, is much easier with this way of, of ripening up front of the album. But, uh, the, the process of ripening and arranging does not get easier. It gets harder because you just continually trying not to cover ground that you've previously used.
RSW:
…Just, uh, like to go back and work through the years. Because I've been reading some, some old interviews from like 81, 82…
MH:
That must have been nice for you.
RSW:
It was nice. Yeah.
MH:
Yeah.
RSW:
And it, it's funny 'cause um, you seem like, you talk very a lot about this, about writing music and creating and that being very important. And there's also this what you choose Elvis Costello, um, to support…
MH:
Right.
RSW:
And it seems like you were sort of like a lot clever than most bands. So, um, I was just wondering, did you already then sort of know which way you were heading?
MH:
No. No. Absolutely not. That's an impossible one. I don't actually think that far ahead, you know, all I do is just sort of think, well, look, you know, I don't, I don't wanna redo what I've already done.
I think, you know, where, where you go through those early albums, one, one of the things that, uh, made, made a difference was sort of having a second album that was quite a successful one. It it meant that at the point when we went into a studio, we had much more, you know, much more money available to us in terms of getting real people in play stuff, and also in the amount of time that, that we had to spend in the studio. So I think that's important. The, the other thing is, is it's kind of like, you know, where we'd begun and we were in sort of a format, which was a very simplistic soul form and quite short and direct.
All, all you then looking to do is, is just to try and stretch that form and look at different ways of bastardizing it to get you into, in new areas, you know, and, and you can kind of say, you know, it's like, it's like the thing of like moving into an album…
Like, it, it, it's sort of like, you know, with with all with all these things from album to album, you just sort of think, okay, look, “What, what is the reason that I'm making this album? What is it on this album that I want to do that I haven't done before?”
Now where, where you kind of move up to Spirit of Eden, I, I kind of think that was very much like in a way where all those earlier albums were trying to get to. And then having got there, I then think the important thing is that, you know, you either, you either just stopped making records at that point because you've kind of reached what you were trying to get. Or from that point, you, you'd seriously redress, you know, these other areas that you, that you go for.
RSW:
But it, is it only that, or is it also like a sort a struggle to the, uh, to the business in a way? Because it's, today it seems like, like a really, um, like a decision to do. Well, you had The Colour of Spring, which was hugely successful. Sure. And then you sort of did the most uncommercial thing, instead, like a big decision now?…
MH:
No, because it's, it, it's not, the, the commerciality isn't, isn't a decision at all. It doesn't come into it. It's kind of like at the point when we were, you know, looking towards Spirit of Eden, that was just like a thing of just sort of saying, you know, obviously at that point in time you still had, you know, an album format. So your album was very much two sides and that, and that was just the two important elements to making that album were, was just sort of saying, “okay, the first one is to write music that lasts the whole of one side.” And the other was just to look at this new way of arranging where we worked with the arranged improvisation.
So that, that, that was it [Spirit of Eden]. And, and I've, you see, I always, I just sort of think, you know what, what, what you want to do is just try and make music that you can't hear anywhere else. You wanna just try and be as unique as you can and as diverse as you can, and just see if there are ways of kind of like mixing different areas of music and, and getting them across with each other in a way which isn't, you know, so obvious. So, you…
RSW:
That's still sort of like an external decision, if you know what I mean. That's still looking at, at the other things. That's around and not, not just go the next step or it's, it's, it's also like a decision not to be like anyone else, not to be commercial.
MH:
Well, it's not a decision not to be commercial because that's not a decision, you know? I mean, I, I just think it's, it was in the nature of the material that we wrote, you know, in like It's My Life and The Colour of Spring that they were commercial albums, you know, but it's, it's not like… you know… it's, it's not like a, a decision to do that.
You know, because it, it, it's kind of like, you know what, why you get into music in the beginning is because you like music. I mean, that's, that's the reason when you, when you're doing all that stuff in, in like the early years and you just sort of like, you know, doing concerts and, and things and whatever, and a lot of the time it's costing you money to actually get up there and, and play them, you know? And the reason you're doing it is for the love of music. It's not to like, try and get some kind of commerciality. So it's like, you know, you, you, you then, …you know…, it. I, I just don't think you should lose touch with that. I think, you know, you should just try and keep that as, as what it's all about.
RSW:
So, so did it feel good to, to make Spirit of Eden?
MH:
Yeah. Well that, that was very much for me. That was kind of like, oh, you know, that is the, that was kind of like the ambition in a way. Although I, I couldn't say, you know, at the point we did the first album, I thought at some point, we will make that album. It's at the point when we made it, it was kind of like, “okay, you know, with this album, this is what we've been trying to get to because we've got all the musicians on here we want, everything is real.” You know, we're using this idea of like free playing and this, this thing of like, being really loose in a studio so that when you go in to a recording studio, you're not concerned about, you know, whether you stop for 10 minutes because of the cost or you're not bothered about, you know, if, if you get someone in the, the amount of money it's cost and then you can't use it. All, all of that goes, it's just about getting the right feeling from the people that you play with and making them at, at their ease and just kind of, you know, yeah. Just getting everyone mentally where they should be.
But you don't, you don't have that. You see early on when you first do record deals, you've got too much biting on you to be able to to, to do that.
RSW:
Yeah. But you had to use synthesizers and stuff.
MH:
Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.
RSW:
So from Spirit of Eden to Laughing Stock was what was like the, uh, …the new area?
MH:
The, the, the new thing between those for me was it, it was, it was the what, what you could do.
That, you could have that, that you could have, say, say like you had five people playing on the, on the one track, that those five people could all be working in different time signatures, that they would all be kind of looping in different places. And at certain places, these loops would kind of like duck in at each other, and then they would move out of each other.
Uh, and the, with the actual construction of the songs, again, we should just try and look to cover some different grounds. So it was kind of like, you know, you, you take like the first track on that album, uh, “Myrrhman,” and it was kind of like, “okay, let's, let's write a track here where no part of it ever gets repeated. You know, it's just totally a movement like this [going straight] rather than any recognizable song form.
And then you move into like “Ascension Day,” and it, it would be like, oh, okay, on, on this one, across these three verses, verse one will be a ten bar verse, verse two will be a nine bar verse. Verse three will be an eight bar. And, but the, what you do as, as, as this thing shortening up on you vocally, you've still gotta hold it. But what you do is you turn the on beat onto the offbeat, and you have one person understanding the downbeat as being in this place in the bar, and the person playing next to him, not even realizing that's the downbeat at all, but sin is as the upbeat. So that, that, that was, that was the main premise to that album. And again, we continued with this, you know, free improvised form to it.
Having done that, that was kind of like, I'd find it very hard to know where you then continue that. And I, you know, and it's sort of like, you know, Tim would feel the same on that. So it's kind of like, the thing with this new album was, was it was kind of like, “oh okay, let's, let's, let's still sort of look at using say like 15 or 20 instruments, whatever they are across the width of the album in terms of the amount of color that those instruments will give you, but, uh, any one point, you never have more than four or five instruments playing, and you shouldn't be afraid for that to come down to one instrument.” So that the impression that you get across the album is of a very small unit all the time, although that isn't the actual reality of it.
And that what you do, you choose the instruments that, that play on this album. Ones, ones that have one, ones that can exist in different areas of music, so that you can look at a classical area and a jazz area and a folk area, and you can say, “Okay, well look, you know, you, you look at say like a piano, and that can exist across all three.” You take a clarinet, and that can exist in a classical and a jazz sense. You take the flute that can exist in the classical and the folk sense, and you just kind of put it together like that. Then you look up like the woodwinds section and you say, “Okay, well within this group, we want a balance within this, that the, the first clarinet player should principally have a jazz background to him, but the oboist should come from a classical one so that they're sitting at odds.”
So there's this kind of shift between them that you don't get this kind of classical way of listening to, to the way the beat feels on its own, but you don't equally just let it all fall with a jazz thing. You, you work in and out of these areas all the time.
But also with, with it being an, an acoustic album, you, you, you know, there, there are two reasons for that. One, one is that, that, uh, that the ideal is, is that the album won't be recognizable as having come from any time having been recorded in any particular year. And the fact that you're working with acoustics, you help means you can't date and to record in a way that is as realist as this, I think means, you know, you can't, can't date. But then also to hit these instruments at such a low level that, that the kind of, uh, you know, the fragile nature of them and the reality of them becomes as important as the note itself.
So that the kind of way in which the instrument resonates, or the way in which on a piano, the, the kind of overtone sound become almost as as important as, as the written note. So I think that's, that's kind of it…
And, and, sorry… And the one other thing is, is just with this thing of, uh, recording just on these two front mics with everything in a real geographical location and bringing this thing of, of, you know, of, of sound down to such a low level is that you, you, you begin with just the sound of the microphones in an empty room, so that the sound, so, so that it's like the empty room is where you begin with. That's when you first start listening to this album, the first thing you do is locate yourself into a room. And then when you're in that room, then the musicians begin to play. So that's kind of it.
RSW:
There were actually just two microphones in the room.
MH:
Yeah. Just, just one, you know, two in one location just to give you stereo. Otherwise you, otherwise, yeah. You might as well think of it as one microphone, one, if you think of it as one stereo microphone, and then everything just exists in, its in its location and the microphone never moves.
RSW:
And all the tracks.
MH:
Yeah, absolutely. Across everything. And then everything, you know, all, all your, uh, musicians are just located in a place where they won't dominate. You know, where, I mean, it's, it's where the engineer's role, Phill Brown of total importance to the way this thing works, because you need quite an ear to understand where people must locate in order for that to work.
RSW:
So instead of mixing, you should of actually physically move people around.
MH:
Yeah. Whenever every, yeah. Once, once everyone's got their locations, it, then they, they stay there, you know, once they're located, they then don't move.
RSW:
You must have been pretty close.
MH:
Yeah. On the microphone myself for singing. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe this far off
RSW:
A track, like, uh, “Westward Bound.”
MH:
Yeah, sure, sure.
RSW:
Really close!
MH:
Well, I, I don't change my position for that. No. But it's just, you just have nothing competing with me at that point. You only have those two acoustics. But yeah, that is, that is very low level vocal.
I mean, the thing is, because by recording things at a different time, you know, recording people separately, but they, they're maintaining their location, you've still got control over balance. So at the point when I do the vocal on Westward Bound, I'm doing it alone. And then you can still, you know, if it's too quiet, you can bring it up in the mix. So you kind of like create the impression that everything is live, but in reality it isn't.
…Do, do you sort of see?
RSW:
It, it's funny when you say this, that there only like four instruments at a time. Because my first sort of thing about the new album, is, it's a bit more intimate that Laughing Stock. Not, not as huge maybe, but… intimate.
MH:
Yeah.
RSW:
But, um, another sort of remarkable thing about your music is, is that when you talk about the instruments going this and this, it's like, you could say the same thing about your vocals, couldn't you?
MH:
Yeah, yeah. Definitely. Yeah, for sure.
RSW:
There's, there's not these, uh, choruses and stuff that much…
MH:
Sorry?
RSW:
There's not like a chorus in each song and…
MH:
No, no.
RSW:
So how do you work with this?
MH:
The, the, the thing with the vocal is, is just, you know, like, like you're saying, you know, treat, treat it like an instrument. It's not there to dominate. It's just there to sit in the kind of landscape along with everything else, you know?
And, and it's kind of like start from a melodic point of view. Then think about the kind of in, you know, the kind of inflections that, that it should have sound wise in the same, like, if you're looking at a clarinet at certain notes, there might be a certain kind of way you want to hear that note, that note, you know, sound.
So when you write the lyric, you, you have that as, as an actual, you know, block that you must write to. You must write this lyric fanatically in order for it to sing with a certain way. And then you must write the lyric in a way that when you sing it, you're gonna have belief in it.
RSW:
Did, did you find words that can, that can make this sound?
MH:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That's, that's what I do. I, I just work from that standpoint. I mean, you know, there are a lot of words available to you that can make particular sounds. It's not, but it, it, it may, it makes things harder, but it's, it's the way to achieve the result.
RSW:
So how important is lyrics then, to you?
MH:
Yeah, yeah. Very, very important. Because as, as, as from, from a, a singing point of view, in order to get the performance, you need to believe in what you're singing. And in order to do that, you've gotta write about something that has some kind of, you know, in a, in a power in you.
RSW:
Um, does it mean anything to you that, that me as a listener doesn't really understand?
MH:
No, because I, I kind of, I, I, I sort of think, you know, it is like that thing where I've, I've sort of written you down the, the poems of Stéphane Mallarmé. I mean, they're, they're like French poems. And it's like, for me, when I first heard that piece of music, I just loved the music for what, what the music was. The fact that I couldn't understand the language was absolutely a secondary consideration. But then finding the translation, it's sort of, well that's, that's like a kind of bonus. But, but it's, it's sort of, it's of total importance in the performance. But I don't, I…, it's kind of like a slightly secondary in terms of the listening thing.
RSW:
Oh yeah. It never bothered me…
MH:
Yeah, sure.
RSW:
It never bothered me either. Because it's just… and then it's just, that's sort of a mood for me. And it's, doesn't really matter what the next is. You get fragments.
MH:
Yeah. I think it's quite nice to be in a thing where you can just kind of like, just get an understanding of, you know. Yeah. I don't think it's essential, but I kind of think it's sort of nice to say that, you know, you can maybe get an idea of the relationship of why at particular points, the vocal hits in a certain way because of what it is that is trying to put across.
RSW:
Actually visually. In, in, when you write the lyrics, you write themselves. Do you?
MH:
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah.
RSW:
It's, it's the same thing. Some words are like… what?
MH:
Yeah. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna print them on this one.
RSW:
You are?
MH:
Yeah. I'm gonna type and type 'em out for this one.
RSW:
How come?
MH:
Uh, so that there are no mistakes. Because, uh, you know, there, there are, uh, I've come across, you know, too many examples of things that I've, I've kind of written where when they've been typed up, the words have been mistaken and it's completely changed the meaning of the line, you know? So I, I just wanna avoid that problem.
RSW:
So on the new album, there will be lyric sheet.
MH:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right.
RSW:
Readable.
MH:
Yeah.
RSW:
So, so, so it do matter to that someone sort of can see what you're saying.
MH:
Yeah. Well, I, I think it's not, I think it, it's, uh, it's a bonus. I don't think it's essential, but I think, you know, it's, it's kind of like, you know, nice to have it there if you want it. I don't think you need to read them. I wouldn't in any way insist you should, you know,
RSW:
When you talk about the room that you played in.
MH:
Yeah.
RSW:
It sounds like that room is very important to the recording.
MH:
Yeah, totally.
RSW:
I mean, and and the silence.
MH:
Yeah. I, I, I think the room is to, yeah, the room and the silence is totally important because that's what you're doing. You just exist in a room and then it's like you're trying to break, you break into, …break the silence. Yeah, absolutely. And then move out of it again.
RSW:
Because we're actually trying to, to make this interview in a place which more quiet than this.
MH:
Right.
RSW:
Maybe in an old theater, you know, a place like that.
MH:
Yeah.
RSW:
Because um, because silence is, is a funny thing.
MH:
Yeah.
RSW:
And, and, um, it's not only sort of in between the tracks, there's this silence.
MH:
Yes.
RSW:
But there's also silence in the silence.
MH:
Yeah, for…
RSW:
Sure. Do, do you sort of, …is silence an extra instrument? Or do, how do you use?…
MH:
Silence? Yeah, I, I I just think it's real.
I, I, I just kind of think, you know, before you play two notes, learn how to play one note, you know? And that's, it's as simple as that really. And don't play one note unless you've got a reason to play it. And that's it, really. I, I, I like silence. I get on great with silence, you know, I, I don't have a problem with it. It's just silent, you know? So it's kind of like, well, if you're gonna break into it, just try and have a reason for doing it.
RSW:
But I mean, in, in the arrangement, in, in the songs, sometimes it's like gaps.
MH:
Sure.
RSW:
I was listening. I have it on tape and I was sort of, you know, music searching on, on the stereo.
MH:
Yeah. Yeah. That must be good. Yeah, that's good. That is, yeah. Yeah. It would sound better on CD than on tape.
RSW:
Yeah.
MH:
Because you'll be more aware of the way the room exists, which I don't think you can be on cassette.
RSW:
But, but the silence gives it sort of like a, um, sometimes you notice the silence more than you notice music.
MH:
Yeah.
RSW:
It's very difficult just to, um, um, sit and listen to the new album writing, sort of let in some way.
MH:
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I, I would, I would agree with that. I, I think, you know, I, ideally, the way to listen to it is alone, and extremely quietly.
I, I don't think you should ever push the volume level beyond the natural volume that the instruments would've been in the room. And then you should… Yeah. Focus into it.
And I, I, I kind of think of it in a way as, as being, you know, almost like, uh, you know, like, like a thing where you meditate and that you just gotta, gotta, you know, locate.
RSW:
Do you meditate?
MH:
No. No. I don't. I don't.
RSW:
…Did you get it last night?
MH:
Yeah, yeah, I did. Yeah.
RSW:
And you just, you just,
MH:
I, I didn't, I I didn't get here till late. Maybe about 10, something like that. So I just, in the bar I didn't, I haven't sort of been anywhere I seen anything done anything.
RSW:
So you're promoting the album traveling around?
MH:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
RSW:
Yeah. Okay. Um, just a bit more about the silence.
MH:
Yeah, sure. Yeah.
RSW:
Because, I think it's very sort of deliberately that you, in songs put like a, a gap of a few seconds and then move on, sort of as if to say, you know, this, there's time enough or…
MH:
Yeah, absolutely.
RSW:
Yeah. Can you explain this?
MH:
Uh, I, I, I guess that's, I, I guess that's just kind of like, you know, to give you time to come out of one thing before you move into the next thing.
You know, there's, there's no rush about anything. It's, it's, it's like the same things when, when, at the point when the album ends, maybe there's like, I dunno, a minute or two minutes or, or whatever, and you're still with the room before it stops, you know, it, it's just, it's, it's kind of like, I, I just sort of think, you know, if, if you sort of are, are in there somewhere, you don't want an abrupt enter things, you just gotta like come out of it gradually. So that's, that's all it is.
And I think in the same way that applies at the front and the back of the album, I think it, it applies the same anywhere within it.
RSW:
Um, something else, um, …when you, when you sort of first, …actually in the beginning when there was, there were people sort of thinking of you as “the other Duran Duran…”
MH:
Right? Sure.
RSW:
Um, I was talking about you being a bit more clever and stuff.
MH:
Right.
RSW:
Um..
MH:
I don't think we were that clever when we stuck white suits on, but there you go. Yeah.
RSW:
But there weren't very much of this. I mean, no, there was a bit Lee Harris to see a bit of makeup and that's sort of it. And then maybe white suits.
MH:
Yeah. I mean, you know, I, I'd just have to put those things down. The kind of like the pressure you come under when you sign a record deal, it's kind of like, you know, you just get hit with all sorts of things at a point when you do a deal. And obviously with, with anyone, you spend so long trying to get a deal and it's such an, an amazing event to get one, you know, that you can now just earn a living by music. You become quite vulnerable in certain areas, you know, and it's kind of like, you know, if you're lucky enough you can escape that.
RSW:
But how did you escape that? It, there must have been some kind of pressure…
MH:
I, I think, I think how we first kind of got, got to escape it mainly was, was with the, It's My Life album being a kind of successful album. And it was one that there'd been very little kind of, uh, it, …it was kind of like in England, it, it was sort of like, I mean, nothing happened with it in England. And it was kind of like the record company in England. It's sort of like, “well, whatever.”
And then, because like elsewhere, that became a very successful album. It was, it kind of felt to me like it was then, well because they'd kind of been left, you know, we'd been left to get on with it and we'd had a successful album. Well then we'd be allowed to do that again. You know? And I, I think that's kind of where it, it started from getting that, getting that freedom. And then obviously like with anything is, the more freedom you get, the less prepared you are to give it up.
RSW:
And Spirit of Eden sounds like a record that we really had freedom.
MH:
Yeah. Total. Absolute. That that was the first album where it is absolute freedom with no, no dialogue at all. Just, you know, when it's finished and made it's handed over and that's, that is the end of the story. And then Laughing Stock was the same, and this one is the same.
RSW:
And then with this, once you sort of, you're really talking about playing live was a very important thing, then you stopped that as well.
MH:
Yeah.
RSW:
Around this period.
MH:
Yeah. I mean, I, I, I stopped playing live for a few reasons. I, I stopped playing live firstly because I wanted to have a family and I didn't want to tour and have children, you know, at the same time.
And even with our last tour, which was sort of after we made The Colour of Spring, it was getting, it was already starting to become harder by the nature of the stuff that was written on that album to actually perform that in a live set up. So it was kind of like on that last tour, what was called “The Colour of Spring Tour” in 86, maybe like a third of the set would've been The Colour of Spring and two thirds would've actually been the previous album.
At the point when you'd move on to something like Spirit of Eden, it'd just be insane to even begin to try and think how you could recreate there. And also because the nature of the recording itself was just totally driven by freeform playing. The minute you would then get people into duplicate those parts would be the total opposite of the whole purpose of the way in which the album was made.
RSW:
But this is just one more freedom sort of aspect, isn't it?
MH:
What?
RSW:
To be able to not, not to have to play live.
MH:
Yeah. Yeah.
RSW:
And you moved to Suffolk, or?…
MH:
Yeah, but, and, but the thing as well, you see by, by also by not having to play live, it then puts you in a position where when you come out of making another album, you know, when you come out of making an album, rather than then for that next year being kind of like recreating that you can just clear your head and start kind of like, you know, thinking where the next one goes.
So I think that that was another important point before, you know, going into the Spirit of Eden was, was, uh…
…Oh, no, no, that wouldn't be true with that because we did do it on the back of that. No, something wrong there. There you go. I can't always but you. Right.
RSW:
But for you being so very important not to repeating yourself.
MH:
Yeah.
RSW:
Um, and you do interviews and you must be repeating yourself a lot there.
MH:
Yeah. And that's the worst thing about interviews is because it's like with anything, uh, at the point, at the point you first get asked the question and you answer it, you answer it because it's what you think. And then yeah. It becomes formulaic. The answers do become that. Yeah, definitely.
RSW:
But you, you seem a bit more comfortable than I thought you would be.
MH:
Right.
RSW:
So…
MH:
Maybe it's the chair…
RSW:
…Um, also in, in an, an old interview, uh, from 82, actually, you said, um, you thought at the moment, Echo and the Bunnymen and you two were the two bands sort of you thought were most interesting and had the force actually. Um, and when you look at those today…
MH:
Yeah, that's if I did say that, of course…
RSW:
Yeah. Maybe.
MH:
Yeah.
RSW:
Maybe at the time they were, they were good.
MH:
I think. Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. Sure.
RSW:
Um, but sort of at, at one point they must have traveled one way and you must have traveled another, do you know?
MH:
Sure, yeah. Yeah. I'm sure. Well, obviously, yeah.
RSW:
And, uh, which way do you think they went?
MH:
I don't know. I mean, what way did they go? I dunno, what way did they go?
RSW:
Well, you know, U2 is sort of like one of the biggest bands in the world.
MH:
Yeah, for sure. They are.
RSW:
Do you think you could have been?
MH:
No, no. I wouldn't have wanted it to have been either.
And I, you know, in i part of one, one of the reasons, you know, why they've become so big is, is because of the amount of life work they've done. Because that is an important, an important part of, of success is, is live performance. And I mean, you know, they, they are masters of it, aren't they?
RSW:
Um, and, and they repeat themselves too, so their fans are happy. That's sort of like another success formula, isn't it?
MH:
I mean, look, they're, you know, …You tell me. You tell me.
RSW:
Okay, well I think so. …Just gotta look at this paper again.
…Um, yeah. So, uh, when you wrote me these things, this is sort of stuff that you sort of listen to mostly, isn't it?
MH:
Yeah, yeah, sure. It's, yeah,
RSW:
Because, um, I wanted to ask you, because our TV program sort of, um, mainly deals with, uh, contemporary music.
MH:
Mm-hmm.
RSW:
Do you think there's anything wrong with that?
MH:
Well, contemporary rock music, do you mean? Is that what you mean?
RSW:
Well, yeah, pop music. “Rock.”
MH:
Music, yeah. Well, I, I dunno what it is. So how can I say there's anything wrong with it? I, I think it would, would be great if, if, you know, music journals and music programs could, uh, be as diverse as possible.
I, I think, you know, in, in the, …yeah, I mean I, I I just think it would be nice, uh, to sort of say, well look, you know, if you like this, why don't you try this? You know, and, and sort of, uh, not be afraid to like look back to other eras as well, you know, I mean, maybe with, with some TV programs, there's, there's a problem on the music they play because the way it's recorded isn't, you know, on the case enough. But, you know, they can be some of the best recordings you'll ever have.
RSW:
But it, it seems to me that you're not sort of into anything that's going on sort of in rock-pop right now?
MH:
No, I'm, I'm just, I'm, I'm sort of like really ino music. I, I love of music and, and you know, I'm not kind of like trying to get away from anything or say, you know, look all, all, all, all, I'm, I don't have any problem with what's going on now. Because I dunno what it is! And it, it doesn't matter though.
You know, I, there are just like areas of music that really interest me at the minute, and all I'm trying to do is kind of like find, find stuff that does that for me, you know? And, and it's kind of like, there's such an insane amount of material out there to get through it. It just takes all, all my time trying to like, follow these little paths through, you know, like, you know, artists and then associated artists to them, you know?
RSW:
So, but, but you've been away for, for like seven years?
MH:
Mm-hmm.
RSW:
…From the music business?
MH:
Well, yeah, but I'm, I've, I've been away from the music business for much longer than that. I've been away from the music business for like 12 years, you know? I mean, I, I think at the, you know, at the point when we began, at the point when we finished touring in, in 86, at that point, I think I've been away from the music business because at that point it's kind of like, you just work to absolutel what you believe and then when the, the things ready you deliver it, you know? And although I sort of have lots of friends that are musicians, you know, we don't kind of like operate in some kind of like, you know, we, we, we just, you know…
RSW:
So, and, and, and what, what did you leave behind then? What was the life? Was it just touring and, or was it, what is the music business?
MH:
What is it? Yeah, I mean, you know what the music business is. I mean, you know, this…
RSW:
Is interviews… and so would you, would you appear in a TV show with like, Top of The Pops or something?
MH:
Would I appear on Top of the Pops? That’s an unlikely question really, you know…
RSW:
That's something that's not something you sort of, you haven't decided about?
MH:
Well, I don't really think it's like, you know, a real consideration. I mean…
RSW:
No?
MH:
You know.
RSW:
But, um, have you decided not to do music videos anymore?
MH:
…Uh, well, I, I'd sort of, again, it's not like a decision. I can't see there's anything on this album you would make a video for. You know, I can see there's things on this album. The, the one thing that I, I did wonder about doing for this album was to get together with, uh, you know, somebody and make a film for this album, and that, that would interest me.
But I don't think it would, it would be much more a film along the kind of lines of, you know, if you was sitting in a room and you would sort of like just looking at an open fire and you just have like this area of movement and no narrative, and it's just that, and it kind of gives you like something that you, you kind of like look towards, but you don't have to think about and you don't have to consider. But, you know, it's just like a kind of visual focus, you know? I, I could consider that, but, you know, I mean, I, I'd…
RSW:
Actually, we, we, um, we want to play your music and, uh, from the new album, and then we sort of just consider this, um, you know, shooting something that we thought was nice.
MH:
Yeah.
RSW:
So do you have any suggestions? You know, there's a fire and…
MH:
Yeah, I mean, I, I, I quite like, I, I quite like things, you know, like I, I, I like water as a form of movement. I, I think water's got great, great shape and motion too. I like that kind of thing where you kind of like looking at a, looking down a stream and you get little objects that kind of move slowly and then maybe get caught around something for a while, and then they sort of move on things. Things like that I think are nice.
RSW:
Also, like things from the air.
MH:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I, I think movement's always a good thing. I mean, I like bird movement. I like, you know, uh, I just like, you know, again, things, things with motion, but, but things of motion that kind of, you know, relate to, to the sort of, you know, the, the, the flow of the tracks,
RSW:
The clouds maybe.
MH:
Yeah. Why not? Why not? Yeah.
RSW:
So, so you like visuals, you're not sort of leaving that out of your life?
MH:
Yeah, I, I like visual things. Yeah. I mean, I've, I've just, I've, I've just finished up writing a piece of piano music for like a kind of art, art installation thing. So there you have sort of an example where I'm kind of, you know, but I, I'd sort of, you know, I, I like the idea of trying to get music into other areas that I haven't sort of worked in before, you know? And, and certainly, you know, where you look at things like film, you know, I, I've, I, but in a classical, you know, in, in a classical sense, I mean, in a, you know, I, I don't mean in a sense of classical music, but I mean in a classical sense of filmmaking where it's not driven by music, but the music is really there to kind of underscore mood. I, I would very much like to work in that area. I think that'd be great.
RSW:
Um, but you, you, since Laughing Stock, it's been like seven years.
MH:
Mm-hmm.
RSW:
You, you've done a bit of this. You've been, you've been writing music and…
MH:
Sure.
RSW:
So, and what have you done?
MH:
Yeah, I mean, I, I've spent a bit of time just kind of writing like stuff for woodwind, spent a bit of time at home learning how to play the piano. You know, I spent a bit of time just kind of like experimenting with different sounds and the way things might resonate.
RSW:
…And, but how could you afford to not to do anything sort of?
MH:
Well, I, you see from, from, uh, at this point in time, I can still afford to live on royalties that I've earned in the past. So that's, that's how I can afford to do it.
RSW:
…And so the new album is not just because you needed new money in the bank?
MH:
No, no, no, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have made it for that reason.
RSW:
Could, could you imagine yourself living and, and not sort of putting anything out?
MH:
Yeah, I, I can, I ab absolutely no problem. No, no problem at all. I, I can't imagine not playing music, but I don't feel any need to perform music, and I don't feel any need to record music.
But, you know, that's all, all, all that is, is, I mean, when you first take up an instrument in the beginning, that's all that is, isn't it? So why should you want anything different now than you want it in the beginning? Because it's just your, your love of what it is and the nature of the instrument that you care about.
RSW:
So is this why you take things like the new album just being acoustic and just too, like, sort of, sort of to have a motivation to, to try to fulfill sort of an, an, an idea? Do you know what I mean?
MH:
No, I don't. Sorry.
RSW:
…Since you don't have like a motivation to record the things to get out…
MH:
Yeah.
RSW:
…Then you sort of put things up for yourself that, to make it sort of like harder for yourself to record, or?…
MH:
No, no, I, i, that, that way of recording was really just to get that, that kind of geography to the sound, that, that's all that was. Yeah.
I, I don't do things to make, make my life harder, you know? I find the writing and everything hard enough as it is, you know?
RSW:
But so who would, who would you play to that, …uh, your family? Or…
MH:
Who would I for yourself? I play to, I wouldn't play to anyone. I'd just sit in the, in my mind and play, you know? I mean, that's all it's about, isn't it?
It's just, I, I just find, I, I just find, you know, whether you are with a piano, whether you are with a guitar, I just think that you know, the, the physical feel of the instrument I think is great. And I kind of think, you know, in the same way, like, you know, where you have those little Chinese balls that, that you kind of move around. I kind of think, you know, you've got the same sort of therapy on a, on a piano or on a guitar, and I just find it a really relaxing thing to do.
You know? And, and like I said, I don't, I, I don't kind of, you know, I, I, it, it is kind of like, I, I don't kind of feel any need to have to try and write stuff, you know? I'm really quite happy just to play one note and just to hit it at different volume levels and just, you know, see how long it will resonate for before it stops and things like that, you know? And just look at the dynamic shape of the, this note to the one that gets played afterwards. I just find it really relaxing and I just really, you know, and I, you know, yeah, I, I I kind of think, you know, maybe like in the same way where, where people have kind of like mantras and stuff that they get into, just kind of think of like the piano and the guitar, almost like a physical, a way of physically and mentally getting into that.
RSW:
So when the songs for the new album, they didn't just come, you have to decide to make an album now.
MH:
Yeah, yeah.
RSW:
Because music's always there.
MH:
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think, you know, it's kind of like at the point where you say, okay, like I, I now know what the reasons are for making this album. I now know why I'm gonna do it, because on this album, I'm gonna, you know, work with this room and work with this geography and work in this minimalism stress, the importance of sound work, acoustically take the levels down so that the, the resonance becomes as important as the note. You know, just those, those kind of things.
RSW:
Yeah, that's actually what I meant before. So you see the, you see him as a project sort of, and not yourself as a, as a musician or, or a businessman, or…
MH:
Well, I definitely don't see myself as a businessman, you know, I just think of myself as a musician first and foremost.
RSW:
…Um, …in, in the beginning, in, in one of those interviews you said that maybe you said that…
MH:
Yeah, that’s right!
RSW:
…Um, your biggest sort of dream was that your music would be remembered 20 years…
MH:
From then. Yeah, sure. I did say that. I remember that one.
RSW:
So that's sort of now.
MH:
Yeah, that's right. It pretty much is. We get it now.
RSW:
,,,So is it achieved, you think?
MH:
Yeah, I mean, I, I, I kind of think, I mean, I, I, I just sort of think, uh, that with, with that statement, I kind of think, uh, you see, I, I kind of think of the statements slightly differently that I, I sort of think, you know, the ideal with music is that it exists outside of a time and that it can exist in any time.
So that's what I would, I, …I think at that time, because I was, I was more kind of caught up in a thing of actually writing songs that, that, …that that's why we're talking that way. And I would sort of, I've seen 20 years as like, you know, this kind of arbitrary time. But that's something where now you see, I, I don't think in a song format, I just think that, you know, like I say to you that if, if it exists totally outside of time, that is, you know, the ultimate thing you could, could achieve.
RSW:
So you would rephrase it now to…
MH:
Yeah, I, I, I would now, because like, I think that's sort of said with regard to songwriting, where I don't think of myself as a songwriter at all. I, I, I kind of think of myself, you know, just like more as sort of like a musician really with an interest in sound and being fortunate enough to work with an engineer who not only understands what I, what I mean by that, but can help me achieve it.
RSW:
So is that sort of like the goal now, or?…
MH:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well it's, it's, it's hard to say it's like a goal because it's not like something that I expect to do because the, the goal is just, you know, you make things for the right reason and that you're fortunate as a musician that even if you can't do it as an occupation, you can always do it.
So the, the goal is just to enjoy what you do. And it's, that's it.
RSW:
Now, isn't it?
MH:
Yeah. Now, yeah. Yeah.
…
END.
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